Currently on Tilt: Who plays to get lucky on the river?
The last time I played live I experienced this hand…
1/2 NL HE cash game at the Commerce: I call a raise of $10 from MP with AJ off. There are 2 other players in the pot. The button (original raiser) and the BB. The flop brings Jd-Jc-Qd. The BB checks and I bet $12. Both players call. The turn brings a 3rd low diamond. The BB checks and I bet $20. The Button folds and the BB calls. The river is a 10d. The BB goes all in for $20. I call the $20 into $132 pot feeling like he doesn’t have a diamond… The moron shows pocket 10s. He rivered a full house on me. I asked him how he could call me down to the river knowing he’s beat the whole way.. he said he felt his 10 coming. Ugh!!!
I just wrapped up a similar cash game online in the massive stakes of the .05/.10 game. Almost exactly the same hand took place only I had AA and the flop was 10-10-K.. then a 4.. then the 8.. I was on the button and reraised the whole way against my 2 opponents.. only the MP player just called down everything with his pocket 8s… until the river when he went all-in and I called because I couldn’t put him on anything but a K or a K8.. I knew he didn’t have a 10. Another rivered full house. Bastards!!!
What is with these horrible players? If I played like that I’d never get lucky on the river and take down a huge pot. Is this just a product of these horribly low stakes? Please tell me I can get these hands to fold if the stakes were higher.
In real life… I started a new full time job. It’s really good and I like it a lot… thankfully I won’t be relying on low stakes live action to pay the bills… haha.. imagine?? My new job is keeping me really busy. Since I cashed out some winnings on Stars last week it’s been all down hill with what I left in my account… so I’m taking a break from playing (well, like 2 weeks before I get back to the casino). I’m reading 2+2 and my books again.. planning to return to Commerce refreshed…
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Comments
Why did you limp with AJo? (you said you called a raise from the button). AJo HATES multiway action! Why did you bet so little into a 31$ pot, less than half the pot, giving everyone with a half decent draw the odds and implied odds to call you? I would call a 12$ bet in a heartbeat with a bad hand like 98o, because I know you will overvalue you hand if I happen to hit that T. Do you think the guy with the TT would have stayed had you bet pot on the flop? On the turn you then bet less than 1/3rd the pot, with a guy that has 40$. Yes, the flush is out there, but the guy is easily pot committed. It’s an interesting decision on how to extract most value out there, but not running into an uncomfortable situation. I guess I would value bet more and put BB all-in. I wonder if you would’ve felt better if you would’ve gotten beat by a flush?
See, I feel good when I get bad beat by a two-outer chasing long odds, but I feel bad when I get beat by a hand that was played correctly, there’s no money to be made there. MOST of the players feel the other way around. I am of the school that there IS value in Sklansky bucks… It DOES even out in the end. I rivered a 9 with pocked 9s against pocket Ks 2 nights ago. I just kept calling the lady’s bets (it was LIMIT), because I knew she was capable of 3-barrelling AK. And it put her on tilt…
thank you, longclaw
Bella, Good points on my bet sizes. This is definitely an area I need to work on. I also limped with the AJo because my preflop raises were getting called by all kinds of junk anyway.. I think I wanted to be able to get away from it easier if I missed… probably not the best thought process.. looking back on it.
Now, getting beat by the flush would have proved that it was my bad call on the river and my bad bet sizes that allowed him to get there.. this I could have choked up as a lesson I needed to learn. However, when he hits the miracle card… that just makes me angry that someone would chase for that… I guess not respecting the fact that i had him beat.. or something. I think I took it personally.
I guess the lesson I need to learn is that he should have had a flush and I should be studying up on my actions in that hand… as if he did.
*Also.. no longer on tilt. Just tired from my new job…
oh, and when I started to mention a bit that I play poker they asked me if I saw “lucky you”.. haha I couldn’t help but laugh.. thankfully I have not.
The two examples that you have given, do show some bad short-term luck on your part…. but also represent a common error that I see a lot in loose live NL games and low stakes online NL games. The error is betting made hands too weekly. This entices more players to call… and gives bad players pot odds to chase. Often the bad players incorrectly “calculate” pot odds, but often it makes there lose passive play correct.
In your first example, with a $31 pot… the absolute minimum I would bet is 2/3 the pot, but more likely I would bet the pot. With a 2 straight cards and 2 diamonds I would be more likely to over bet the pot by betting $35 or $40. Hard to say for sure since you dont mention how deep you are or the other peoples stack size. But the point is that you will make calling with a draw very incorrect. Basically you want everyone to fold, except for KJ, JT or maybe AQ.
But instead your $12 bet with two callers makes a nice pot of $65. So now we have a large pot with all the possible draws still around. A terrible card falls… the third diamond. Even if one of the 2 players do not have the flush… they have a huge redraw if they have a diamond in thier hand. At this point you have to decide if you are going to shut down or push. Instead of pushing you make another small <1/3 pot bet of $20. What is that bet going to get to fold? Probably not a big diamond and in this case not even a pocket pair. And worse, it pot commits him if he does have a little diamond. And what would you do if he had anothe $100 in front of him? So this is a time for you to apply the maximum pressure and put him all in… or shut down and see what the river brings.
Don’t be afraid to bet the pot if you think you have the best of it. If you are going to get sucked out on make it as expensive as possible. The smaller your bet (and the deeper your stack) the more correct your opponent is to chase.
Also, you say that these are horrible players. Put putting myself in his shoes. What range of hands can he put you on? You cold call a raise. I would think you would reraise with a bigger pair than 10’s. So your call could be AK, AQ, AJ and any pair 10’s and lower. You under bet a flop of JJQ. That doesn’t really narrow the hands down any… and if anything it makes AJ less likely because of such a week bet… since only 2 of the 10 possible hands that you could have beats my 10’s it is a pretty easy call. I am not deep enough to reraise to find out where you are at… so I just call. A scary Diamond comes and you bet $20 in a $65 pot. Can’t really narrow down your range with what could be a continuation bet. BB folds, so now I am heads up with you, and I can still beat 99 through 22, and AK. Probably if you have Ad you would make that $20 bet. So I will call and see what happens on the river. Hello full house! I am all in! So either I am a horrible player and you stopped reading this 10 minutes ago… or your underbetting the pot made that horrible player play correctly.
First off, good luck with your new job. As far as the poker goes, they say it all evens out in the end. I don’t know if I believe that anymore. Good players like you will not be in the position to hit that miracle two-outer on the river. You would have folded on the flop. The only thing you can really do is to make sure you bet enough to show a profit when they miss to make up for the times they hit. But yes, it does suck when you are on the losing end. Just keep plugging away and you’ll be fine.